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pangolin20Chapter Twenty (Part I) | Table of Contents | Chapter Twenty-One
NRSG: A good day, everyone, and welcome back to BattleAxe! Last time, Gorgrael actually killed people, Merlion died, and things were actually half-decent!
Let me attend to the reader post first:
Chessy notes that sealskin clothing was not a very common thing in Europe, which Tencendor is based on. I also wonder how the Axe-Wielders would get so much sealskins, given that the sealers of Tencendor are based on the opposite corner of the continent to where they are now.
She further notes that they should be wearing woollen cloaks, since it “insulates even when wet, and lanolin provides water resistance.” That is certainly a good point. After all, the weather promised to be bad even before they reached Tare, and they could certainly have picked up some more resistant clothing there.
Let me see…
Ill Logic: 32
It’s Like We’re Smart But We’re Not: 11
I just feels like Douglass threw this in because she thought it was cool to have and not bother to think through any aspect of it.
She also notes that Timozel might mean Merlion and the maid by “them”, in the context of praying for their souls. If so, that should have been made clearer. It also makes the anti-Catholicism worse: it might be conceivable that someone other than Artor would save everyone from the storm, but I do not see why Timozel would think that someone other than Artor would save the souls of Merlion and the maid, and especially not why he would think of Artor as a “last resort” for that.
Finally, she suggests a possible way for Merlion and the maid to have died: the horse might have fallen over while going toward the Barrow and killed the maid like that, while Merlion’s horse might have thrown her and left her to run to the Barrows. That does make sense, thankfully.
Also, though I may not mention you here, Maegwin, I do certainly appreciate talking to you!
As for my reflections… well, I would like to give this, because Merlion and the maids are effectively fridged:
No-Wave Feminism: 29 (+9) (5 for Merlion, and 2 for each maid)
Also, I have read ahead a little, and I would like to introduce a single final count: Give Me A Piece of Your Mind. Yes, I promised that I should not do so, but the amount of mind-control up to this point has been quite off the charts, so…
Give Me a Piece of Your Mind: 6
Now, let us resume with the chapter.
The storm has passed and Jack has led Faraday and Timozel to the lee of a Barrow. Jack turns to Timozel. He calls him “[y]oung lord” and says that it would be better for Timozel to wait with his fellow Axe-Wielders. And here we have our first error, as Douglass capitalises the words on both sides of the speech tag.
PPP: 107
Jack says that Timozel should wait for Axis’s orders, and Axis will tell him what to do. He himself will take “the lovely lady” a bit further along the Barrow, “where she can grieve for her mother in private”. He says Timozel can rest now, as he has “been true”. Well, that is not very shady at all.
We are told that Jack has “such a soothing voice” that for a moment, his words make “complete sense” to Timozel. So he nods and Jack leads Faraday away along the Barrow.
So Jack just used mind-control on Timozel so he could leave with Faraday. I truly do not care what he might say; this is not necessary, since it is not necessary that Faraday becomes Borneheld’s wife! And even if Timozel would be around to tell Axis this, they could be gone in time!
Give Me a Piece of Your Mind: 7
Morals for Thee But Not for Me: 32
Timozel closes his eyes and rubs his eyebrows, his head bowed. He mutters Faraday’s name to himself. Then the thinks that he should surely stay with her, as she is “all alone now”. Hmmm, did the mind control also mess with his memory? He opens his eyes and looks up. He can see Faraday and Jack, along with Yr, nearly at the end of the Barrow.
He rightly wonders where Jack is taking her. I mean, I would not expect this to end well, in most books, at least. But then, this is BattleAxe, so the creepy man who is taking Faraday away from everyone only has her best intentions at heart, or so we are supposed to believe. Well, at the sight, Timozel feels “[f]ear and suspicion” and he begins to walk towards them, “his feet strangely heavy and sluggish”. He says that he has to save Faraday, and that “[s]omething ha[s] to be saved from this dreadful day”.
So the mind-control can be counteracted! That is certainly good to know. I also love Timozel here for trying his best to help Faraday. I do not care what Douglas may say; he is one of the most decent characters of the cast.
Cut to Jack and Faraday. Jack stops Faraday at the end of the Barrow. He has an arm around her shoulders and holds his face close to hers, which is not something I exactly like. He asks her if she remembers her promise to “be true”. Jack, now is not the time. I don’t care what the Prophecy may say; Faraday is not in a position to think about this now!
Faraday “nod[s] her head”. She truly does not care at the moment what she has promised to anyone.
Hmmm, I think this is a trend: someone, preferably one of the Sentinels, does something immoral and we get to see its effects, but we are still not supposed to hold it against them. It does not work well at all and I wonder why Douglass put this in.
We then get some lip service about how Jack totally knows “how deeply she [has] been wounded by the sight of her mother’s torn body”. For one, I think that she has been hurt much more deeply by knowing that Merlion is dead, rather than by seeing the body. For another, then why are you still pulling her along with your plan to marry her to Borneheld? I do not care how often I am assured that he certainly cares about Faraday when his actions do not show that!
Well, he says that in “the slaughter and chaos” of the storm they might be able to begin their journey to Borneheld right then and there. If Faraday disappears among the Barrows, “Axis will suppose [her] dead and not search for [her]”. He says that it would be for the best of Axis “suppose[s] her dead for the while”.
Yes, it is certainly “for the best” to make Axis go through a whole lot of unnecessary grief! I may hate him, but this is still not the right thing to do.
Morals for Thee But Not for Me: 33
Also, how do you mean that Axis “will suppose her dead and not search for her”? One, if Axis cannot soon find her among the Barrows, that might mean that she is still alive but, say, unconscious. And given how short the storm lasted, that absolutely does not have to mean that she would be dead. Two, even if Axis thought she was dead, I think he would at least go search for her body to give her a proper burial!
Like, Jack, when search-and-rescue operations do not find people at first glance, they do not generally give up on this people and refuse to retrieve their bodies! This is absolutely not how people work!
Ill Logic: 34 (+2)
It’s Like We’re Smart But We’re Not: 12
Yes, I might see this if the conditions were too dangerous, but the storm has just passed.
Well, Faraday cries, and Jack “stroke[s] her cheek comfortingly”, wiping away both her tears and the rain. Get your hands off her, Jack! And especially do not touch her face like this! I just hate the respect for consent and personal space the Sentinels show.
He tells her not to worry, as “[a]ll will be well”. For the moment, he and Yr think it better that she leaves. Axis is “too distracted” by her, and she will serve him better as Borneheld’s wife. Because Axis cannot control himself at all? I do see what Chessy meant now.
Also, I still doubt that Faraday can consent to much now. Then again, Jack probably only cares about getting her confirmation so he can pretend it was what she wanted.
Well, Faraday whispers that she understands. Jack then tells her to lay her hand upon his staff, as that will keep her safe. He asks Yr to climb on his shoulders. Oh, will we see Jack work magic?
Yr scrambles up “[Jack’s] thick woollen cloak” and crouched on his shoulders. She hisses at him to hurry. So Jack does get sensible clothing while the Axe-Wielders do not? I do not quite know what to say to that…
Jack now takes the staff in “his free hand”, waits until Faraday has grabbed it with both hands, and then raises it slightly and taps the staff “three times on a piece of flat grey rock by their feet”. The sound rings “through the ornate knob at the top of the staff”. That is certainly interesting!
He then says some kind of formula:
“Sing well, fly high, StarFarers. By your leave, let us pass the chamber of death and grant us entry to your Halls. In the name of the One who will walk with you one day we seek your aid this day.”
So… he wants to go inside this Barrow, and the Talons who are buried here are called “StarFarers”. Hmmm… No, this word does not appear in the glossary for some reason. I do wonder who this “One” is. I have some suspicions, but I cannot say anything for certain yet.
Jack’s eyes glow as he uses magic and his fingers whiten on the staff. And then, “everything seem[s] to happen at once”.
Timozel (Timozel!) puts his hand on Jack’s free shoulder. He asks what Jack is doing, “his voice brusque and demanding”. Oh, I am so happy to see Timozel accost Jack here! Then we have this:
Jack whipped his head around, his emerald eyes blazing, his entire face a mask of white-hot anger. Yr hissed and struck out at Timozel with her claws, her own eyes brilliant with anger.
How dare you! You put him under mind control, Jack, so you do not get to be angry that Timozel does not like that! And I hate Yr even more for trying to attack him (again)!
It is just… Jack should be held blameless for mind-controlling Timozel, but Timozel daring to interrupt Jack while he is doing his ritual is the very worst? Talk about double standards. Also, Timozel simply does not know what this ritual entails, which makes it all the worse.
Morals for Thee But Not for Me: 34 (for Yr attacking Timozel)
Now there comes “a sound of rumbling thunder” from the ground, and the earth beneath them “open[s] up into a yawning chasm” and the end of the Barrow begins to collapse. Faraday sees the hole beneath her feet and she screams while she tries to jump clear. She is too late, however, and the next instants she falls in. Then something hits her head and “blackness claim[s] her”.
That escalated quickly! I guess it is what we needed after the tedium of most of the previous chapters. And it seems they have been successful in separating Faraday from Axis, too! At least, if they manage to wake Faraday up again… (She truly is not very lucky, it seems.)
Scene break, and we are back with Axis and the brothers. How nice. Well, they enter the Barrows by the time the storm begins to fade. They have not fared badly, as the “Icarii ward” that Axis has made protected the three of them from the full fury of the storm.
Well, as he rides between the Barrows, he is “appalled at the carnage that [meets] his eyes”. Most of the Axe-Wielders have managed to shelter behind the “ancient earth-covered tombs”, but between them, “hundreds of bodies” lie. Eek. I am somewhat surprised that Gorgrael is allowed to do so much evil things, really, and to be competent, too. Yes, this is not a very large part of the army, but it will still put quite a strain on it, especially with handling the wounded, and it seems like a quite effective scare tactic to me.
Both horses and humans have “died gruesomely”. Other people lie in the mud, “writhing in pain” as they are impaled on the ice spears, “their life blood draining away”. As the ice spears melt away, “[p]uddles of blood and water” mix and the light rain also adds to “the spreading pink puddles”. Um, that seems a little off to me… Let me check.
Well, this is one of the images I came up with:
Yes, this certainly looks pink, does it not? (At least it is just blood in water… I do not know if I could bear to show it otherwise.)
In fact, the main thing for “pink water” that I found was water with dissolved potassium permanganate, which looks like this:
Also, if something coloured is diluted in water, the colour will fade, not change. What, did Douglass think water is coloured dark blue? This is just… it pulls me completely out of the story because of how wrong it is.
It’s Like We’re Smart But We’re Not: 13
Anyway. Ogden looks at Axis and says that it is the work of Gorgrael, and the ice is his mark. My, I think Axis might just have been able to deduce that after seeing Gorgrael in the clouds just now!
Axis barely hears Ogden, and instead whispers “What have I done? What have I done to my men?” He wonders how a storm could “wreak this much mayhem and death”. This is actually a nice bit.
Veremund rides up, “leading Ogden’s donkey”. He says that Axis could not have done any more than he did. After all, how could the Axe-Wielders have fought the storm? If they had not retreated, hundreds more would have died, and in this case, “most found shelter”.
Axis is not comforted by what Veremund says. He says he should have never led the Axe-Wielders out in the first place, but he was just so distracted by “his thoughts of Faraday”. I can certainly see why Axis thinks this, and it is also true, but I think Ogden and Veremund have the greater responsibility here. After all, they knew that Gorgrael might attack, and they still waited an hour before informing Axis.
Well, at the thought of Faraday, Axis looks up, frantically searching for her among the bodies. He digs his heels into Belaguez’s sides and he jumps forward. Well, so much for Axis assuming that Faraday is dead, is it not?
Ogden and Veremund hurry after him, and Ogden lifts his habit across the ground as “he leap[s] in ungainly bounds across the ground.” Then why not get onto your donkey? Yes, that would take some time, but it would also free up Veremund.
Ill Logic: 35
When Axis is less than fifty metres from the nearest Barrow, he sees “Faraday, Timozel and a strange man”, who are all standing at the far end of the Barrow. Ah, so that is when we are! He begins to call, but just then, the ground begins to shake, which causes Belaguez to “stumble[] and almost [fall]”. Axis clutches at Belaguez’s mane and keeps looking at what happens. Again, why is Axis trying to grab Belaguez’s mane instead of the saddle?
Ill Logic: 36
He sees Faraday cry out and clutch at the air, “her whole body weaving backwards and forwards”. Then everyone falls into the hole that has opened. The “entire side of the Barrow” (which I think means the end? The hole is at the end, after all) slides downward and “an immense shifting mass of mud, turf and boulders” engulfs the hole.
1) Well, that is a better bet on making Axis think Faraday is dead than “if he does not see you, he will think you are dead”.
2) This Barrow, at least, did not have a solid structure inside of it? I would think the so-very-advanced Icarii would have thought of that. As it is, I am somewhat amazed the Barrows did not sag long ago.
3) I think vandalising a grave monument can go on Jack’s rap sheet, too.
The landslide keeps on going as long as Axis keeps Belaguez galloping to the source, and then, just as Axis slides to the ground, it “rumble[s] grudgingly to a halt”. Axis dramatically shouts “No!” and he dramatically “tear[s] at the earth with his bare hands”. And there is a dramatic scene break!
Yes, I get it, Douglass. It is dramatic.
Well, Ogden and Veremund reach Axis moments later. Ogden pulls Axis back from the “mudslide”, saying it is “too late” and they are gone. We are told that Axis’s hands are “torn and bloody”. He whispers “no” again, “his face ghostly pale”. This is actually quite good!
Belial joins them, wherever he may have come from. He oozing blood “from a deep wound in his shoulder”. (bites finger) Could you not have held off for a bit, Douglass…? Anyway, I think this is quite dangerous. I think someone should have a look at Belial…
Well, he waves away Ogden and Veremund and then squats next to Axis “and talk[s] to him in a low voice, his eyes intense”. After a moment, Axis nods “curtly” and gets up. Then we have this:
“I am going to ride north until I can face this Destroyer in battle,” he said, his voice harsh, his eyes hard and cold, “and then I will tear him to pieces for what he has done here today.”
Because of course swearing bloody revenge is just so much better! Why did Belial need to wave away Ogden and Veremund for this, again?
It is… does Belial, who knows Axis much better then Ogden or Veremund, truly think that swearing revenge is better for Axis than actually grieving for the people he believes dead? That is the feeling I get from this bit, anyway: that that is supposed to be a better thing to do, as if it is wrong for Axis to be vulnerable. I am not at all surprised, but I am quite disappointed.
Well, on that declaration, the chapter ends. And so does my part of this project! I have actually made it so far! I should make sure to never get something like this again, though…
(shakes self) Either way, I will see you once more to handle the reader post for this bit, and then I will hand this over to the SCSF. I am quite interested to see their perspective. Until then!
(no subject)
Monday, 29 April 2024 09:17 (UTC)Which is pretty funny, because Faradaynever grieves for her mother. Nor is she the least bit traumatised by seeing the poor woman die violently before her eyes.
Come to that, it ultimately turns out that this entire trilogy was unnecessary because everyone was being manipulated from day one by fucking WolfStar, and to absolutely no purpose. Then in the next trilogy we're told the only reason ANY of this shit "needed" to happen was so that Axis and Azhure would have the kid who will actually save the day.
Are you fucking kidding me, Douglass? Thousands of people DIE just so Azhure can squirt out a Special Kid?? WolfStar couldn't have just introduced Axis to Azhure at a party or something? It's one of the most repulsive retcons I've ever read in my life.
There's that word again.
As opposed to what - nodding her elbow?
Yeah, exactly - what is her family going to say when they find out he didn't even bother to retrieve the body? When someone goes missing in the real world, even if the family has decided they must be dead, they still keep hoping they will one day receive the remains so they can see them decently laid to rest.
I watched the Jeffrey Dahmer Netflix series (it's REALLY good), and one thing that made it even worse for the families and friends of his victims is that there was nothing for them to bury.
No it won't! She gets repeatedly raped and then ripped in half while Axis watches and doesn't lift a finger! NOTHING is going to be "well"!
He sure does fly off the handle very easily. Just another reason why I hate him.
A major head injury which of course has no actual consequences.
Enjoy it while it lasts, because it ain't happening again.
But never mind sending in a crew of men with shovels once you're done being melodramatic.
(no subject)
Monday, 29 April 2024 09:38 (UTC)Which is pretty funny, because Faradaynever grieves for her mother. Nor is she the least bit traumatised by seeing the poor woman die violently before her eyes.
NRSG: Because that would get in the way of the plot, I suppose... I am slightly surprised that Douglass does not bother to milk how horrible Faraday is feeling.
Come to that, it ultimately turns out that this entire trilogy was unnecessary because everyone was being manipulated from day one by fucking WolfStar, and to absolutely no purpose. Then in the next trilogy we're told the only reason ANY of this shit "needed" to happen was so that Axis and Azhure would have the kid who will actually save the day.
Come to that, Threshold and The Infinity Gate show two methods that could have been used to get rid of the TimeKeepers without blowing up Tencendor, so the entire Prophecy was useless!
And, because Threshold takes place 2000 years before this trilogy, WolfStar and the Sentinels could have known about this if they had a shred of curiosity!
No it won't! She gets repeatedly raped and then ripped in half while Axis watches and doesn't lift a finger! NOTHING is going to be "well"!
Well, ~eventually~ she will have a relatively happy ending with DragonStar... At least Douglass had the sense to let Faraday be in Wayfarer Redemption.
He sure does fly off the handle very easily. Just another reason why I hate him.
Me too.
A major head injury which of course has no actual consequences.
To be fair, Yr will heal her concussion in the next chapter, so there is at least an acknowledgement that it is an injury (which is more than I can say of certain other authors...)
Enjoy it while it lasts, because it ain't happening again.
Well, then I have Nzame from Threshold to look forward to, at least.
But never mind sending in a crew of men with shovels once you're done being melodramatic.
Well seen!
(no subject)
Monday, 29 April 2024 11:24 (UTC)Oh Christ, she made it even WORSE?
A surprising change of heart.
(no subject)
Monday, 29 April 2024 11:36 (UTC)NRSG: Unfortunately so.
(no subject)
Monday, 29 April 2024 12:35 (UTC)(no subject)
Monday, 29 April 2024 12:43 (UTC)NRSG: ...Because it is unfortunate that she made both trilogies essentially irrelevant.
(no subject)
Monday, 29 April 2024 12:45 (UTC)But yeah, you might as well just say screw it and end the whole nonsense with "and then Axis woke up and it was all a dream".
(no subject)
Monday, 29 April 2024 16:45 (UTC)So... is it just me, or does that read like Jack thinks Axis won't let Faraday marry Borneheld if he knows she's alive?
You know, for all their supposed concern for Faraday the Sentinels don't seem to care about her reputation which is a problem. (Particularly if Borneheld is/was abusive - yes, a sound rep wouldn't save her but a reputation of going off with men would make him worse.)
Yeah, I don't blame Timozel here. If Jack posed a more mundane danger Timozel's response would have been the right thing to do, and I refuse to blame him for not magically knowing this wasn't mundane.
Ah, of course - yon Manly Man cannot possibly cry, for as we all know Men Don't Cry. On a related note Achilles, Beowulf and Little John would like a word with you.
(no subject)
Monday, 29 April 2024 17:56 (UTC)NRSG: Good points on the reputation! One would think that Yr would have picked some things up from being in Carlon for so long, but apparently it must all bend before the Prophecy.
So... is it just me, or does that read like Jack thinks Axis won't let Faraday marry Borneheld if he knows she's alive?
That is certainly the impression I get.
Axis having to be so "manly" is just so irritating!
(no subject)
Monday, 29 April 2024 19:15 (UTC)The more exposure I get to Douglass' concept of manliness the more grateful I am that my formative stories don't share it.
(no subject)
Sunday, 2 June 2024 14:19 (UTC)Jack, I warn you, I have a cactus, and I am not afraid to use it. Stop being creepy and predatory, immediately.
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When he says that Faraday is all alone, I think he means in terms of her mother and maids, not that she's literally alone. Although frankly, I think being by herself would actually be safer than being with Jack...
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Douglass, I am revoking your right to use the word 'dreadful'. Get a thesaurus, for crying out loud!
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Hell yeah, he is! Go Team Timozel!
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Is he just going to start asking her this every few hours or something? If he is, I'm gonna need an industrial-sized container of hand sanitizer, because just reading about him makes me feel dirty and slimy. Also, her mother's body is not even cold yet, and you're already hounding her? "You promised! Don't forget, you promised! You remember that you promised, right?" PISS OFF.
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........ *RUNS AWAY SCREAMING* I'm sorry, but with the creepy vibes and nonconsensual touching... Yeah, my mind went there.
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I'mma go ahead and say he's referring to Axis. We already know that he's supposed to be some kind of messiah, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was elevated to deity status at some point.
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Really subtle, there, Jack. Couldn't you have just opened up a tiny little tunnel? If you're supposed to be trying to sneak away without being noticed...you're failing. Creating a miniature Grand Canyon just a short distance away from everyone is going to call attention to yourself, you moron!
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I don't want to say that it would be hilarious, since Faraday shouldn't have to suffer for his incompetence, but imagine if Faraday fell and snapped her neck or something because Jack was so careless. There goes the fate of the world!
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I'm pretty sure that either he or Veremund literally said that Gorgrael was the one causing the storm a little while ago.
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It's possible that the saddles they use don't have very much to grab on to. Look at English saddles, for example. You wouldn't get much purchase on something so small. Your only choice would be to grab the horse itself.
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I don't think the Barrows are actually hollow. From what I read, the hole opened up right next to the Barrow, and the earthquake caused the landslide.
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Don't worry, it's just raspberry jelly, not real blood. Or corn syrup with red food dye, if you prefer. No gore here, it's all smoke and mirrors.
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I interpreted this as something like Belial indicating "I'm second-in-command, I have him now. Your help isn't needed, shoo, shoo!" Or maybe I'm just being petty and imagining Belial being so dismissive because I hate the Sentinals and want to see someone condescend to them for once.
(no subject)
Sunday, 2 June 2024 14:49 (UTC)When he says that Faraday is all alone, I think he means in terms of her mother and maids, not that she's literally alone. Although frankly, I think being by herself would actually be safer than being with Jack...
That is entirely fair. She might as well be "all alone" here.
Douglass, I am revoking your right to use the word 'dreadful'. Get a thesaurus, for crying out loud!
Yes, I think this is a rare instance where using a thesaurus would improve the work.
Also, her mother's body is not even cold yet, and you're already hounding her? "You promised! Don't forget, you promised! You remember that you promised, right?" PISS OFF.
Yes, it does seem like it. These are the people we should trust, right?
I'mma go ahead and say he's referring to Axis. We already know that he's supposed to be some kind of messiah, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was elevated to deity status at some point.
Oh, he certainly will be a god for a while. Yes, I do think he means Axis now.
Really subtle, there, Jack. Couldn't you have just opened up a tiny little tunnel? If you're supposed to be trying to sneak away without being noticed...you're failing. Creating a miniature Grand Canyon just a short distance away from everyone is going to call attention to yourself, you moron!
Ah, but that was part of the plan, apparently!
I don't want to say that it would be hilarious, since Faraday shouldn't have to suffer for his incompetence, but imagine if Faraday fell and snapped her neck or something because Jack was so careless. There goes the fate of the world!
Yes, this is a ridiculous route to take, especially because of things like this.
I'm pretty sure that either he or Veremund literally said that Gorgrael was the one causing the storm a little while ago.
Indeed he did! That only makes this worse!
I don't think the Barrows are actually hollow. From what I read, the hole opened up right next to the Barrow, and the earthquake caused the landslide.
I meant that the Barrows are only made of a pile of earth, without reinforcements inside of it.
I interpreted this as something like Belial indicating "I'm second-in-command, I have him now. Your help isn't needed, shoo, shoo!" Or maybe I'm just being petty and imagining Belial being so dismissive because I hate the Sentinals and want to see someone condescend to them for once.
Oh, that makes sense!
(no subject)
Sunday, 2 June 2024 15:08 (UTC)...you know, now that you bring it up, I actually don't know if burial mounds like this have supports inside of them.
One Google search later...
Yep, you're absolutely right. From what I can tell, burial mounds are usually built up around a wooden or stone tomb. So maybe not reinforcements, per se, but a solid core around which the earth is packed.
(no subject)
Sunday, 2 June 2024 16:34 (UTC)NRSG: Then I suppose my argument does not hold water, since this is the end of the Barrow. Oh well.
(no subject)
Monday, 20 January 2025 17:49 (UTC)<3
Wait, did not only Faraday get swallowed up by the barrow, but also Timozel, Jack and Yr? Also, good for Timozel for shaking off the mental manipulation!
(no subject)
Monday, 20 January 2025 17:51 (UTC)NRSG: I did hope you would get this far, and you did!
Yes, all of them did fall in. I do like that he manages to break it; if only he could do so later...